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August 11, 2007

Neil Clark: War Criminal

Fascinating, absolutely fascinating:

Since Clark rests part of his incitement to murder on international law (and clearly the terms in which he has described these civilian staff as ‘legitimate targets’ does constitute such an incitment), it is worth explaining one point here.

There is an overwelming consensus that the invasion of Iraq was illegal. However, the notion that people ‘collaborating with the occupation’ are war criminals is rubbish. On the contrary, the statute of the International Criminal Court, which is largely based on the Geneva Conventions, specifically states that what Clark is advocating is a war crime. You can find the link here:
http://www.icc-cpi.int/about.html

It is worth reading Article 8 on war crimes.  Amongst the crimes that it lists are:

‘Intentionally directing attacks against the civilian population as such or against individual civilians not taking direct part in hostilities’.

The second half of that sentence was specifically written to protect those whom Clark calls ‘collaborators’. He goes on to argue against a basic principle of human rights law (enshrined in the UN Convention against Torture, the Refugee Convention and the European Convention on Human Rights) that people fleeing persecution should be denied sanctuary in Britain, so we can assume that his commitment to international law is fairly selective.

What is more interesting is whether or not this article, through its clear incitment to people to commit war crimes (his repeated refusal to distinguish between military combatants and civilians), would actually make Clark himself liable to criminal prosecution. The Rwanda radio case springs to mind and war crimes have universal jurisdiction. I think that the police and attorney general might want to have a word here.

August 11, 2007 in Idiotarians | Permalink

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Comments

Clark may well be the shabbiest shit at the Guardian - quite a feat - but what he says should be protected by ordinary free speech arguments. Of course, it's only The State that can be precluded from disciplining him. If Tim and a bunch of his mates want to kick six bells out of him, I would refrain from interposing my body. After all, The State's Criminal Justice System has become so bloody incompetent and counterproductive that most people will turn to vigilantism in the end, I fear.

Posted by: dearieme | Aug 11, 2007 3:03:47 PM

Well, if that's the case then I'd better pack a spare of pants for a night in the cells in The Hague.

Throwme in the same cell as Clark - and I bags the top bunk.

Tim, this post, I'm afraid, proves what I have suspected for a long time - that libertarianism is a philosophy as rigid and doctrainaire as War Communism.

A prosecution for war crimes? Fine. Bring it on.

Posted by: Martin | Aug 11, 2007 3:40:37 PM

Tim,

Christopher, the prick to whom you have linked here, looks as if he's about 12.

My ageism notwithstanding, it seems as if Conor Foley, the prick to whom the prick Christopher linked, is a 'Research fellow' in Human Rights.

Is he even a lawyer?

Conor would be better off staying in the aid game and daubing the sores of lepers with turps, because if the very tenuous case he makes is unsupportable, he just might find himself on the wrong end of charges of attempting to pervert the course of justice and a civil action for malicious prosecution.

I have a name for this particular form of threatening behaviour on the Internet. I call it 'Luckhursting'-

http://theggnomeridesout.blogspot.com/2005/11/correspondence-with-reader.html

I think we call now get off Neil's case for a while - don't you?

Posted by: Martin | Aug 11, 2007 3:48:17 PM

Martin, I don't think it counts as ageism if you're only going off the age that I appear.

Posted by: Chris White | Aug 11, 2007 5:56:20 PM

Is that all you have to say?

I would suggest you read my comments very closely and tapay them a great deal of heed.

Sow the wind, you reap the whirl wind.

It is time for this hounding of Neil Clark to stop. This is going too far.

Posted by: Martin | Aug 11, 2007 6:03:12 PM

"If Tim and a bunch of his mates want to kick six bells out of him, I would refrain from interposing my body."

Well at least that's a tad more subtle than the last call to rough up Clark.

Still no 'Tim adds...' though, I see...

Posted by: Neil | Aug 11, 2007 6:21:27 PM

"It is time for this hounding of Neil Clark to stop. This is going too far."

Did he appoint you to be his mum or did you just fancy taking on the role?

Posted by: Chris White | Aug 11, 2007 6:21:31 PM

Chris,

Thank you for displaying much of the immaturity with which much of this attack on another man's freedom of speech has been conducted.

And if that's your best shot, son, I cannot wait to get you on the witness stand. You'll be crying for your own mother by the time I'm finished with you.

Posted by: Martin | Aug 11, 2007 6:46:50 PM

Immaturity like, "That prick looks about 12"?

Posted by: Chris White | Aug 11, 2007 6:50:31 PM

Incidentally, virtually nobody is attacking Clark's "freedom of speech". I'm certainly not. I'm just criticising what he said.

Posted by: Chris White | Aug 11, 2007 6:55:12 PM

"That prick looks about 12"

Veritas.

Posted by: Martin | Aug 11, 2007 6:59:34 PM

On both counts.

Posted by: Martin | Aug 11, 2007 6:59:50 PM

I'm not denying the truth of either part of the statement.

Hardly the biggest or cleverest way to open an argument though, is it? Which makes subsequently criticising my immaturity rather a silly thing to do.

As is trying to back up your original remark with "Hurr hurr hurr, but you do look 12!".

Posted by: Chris White | Aug 11, 2007 7:08:08 PM

I cannot wait to get you on the witness stand.

*ahem*

In this jurisdiction our witnesses go into the witness box. It's Americans who take the stand. (Take the stand where? as my old pupilmaster would say.)

Posted by: Katy Newton | Aug 11, 2007 7:15:40 PM

Neil, I wasn't calling for anyone to be roughed up. I was trying ruefully to suggest that our legal system is becoming so widely despised that there might not be much point in discussing how it ought to behave because people are likely increasingly to ignore it.

Posted by: dearieme | Aug 11, 2007 9:28:53 PM

I can confirm with some degree of certainty that Chris isn't 12.

Posted by: ceri | Aug 11, 2007 9:39:33 PM

Actually, I'm glad Clark wrote that cr*p.

It makes him look vile - good.
It makes the Grauniad look filthy - good.
It makes the "anti war" brigade look brutal and sadistic - good.

Whenever your adversary shoots himself in the foot, it's good. Stand well back while he re-loads, and enjoy the spectacle.

Monty


Posted by: Monty | Aug 11, 2007 9:44:56 PM

"Incidentally, virtually nobody is attacking Clark's "freedom of speech". I'm certainly not. I'm just criticising what he said."

That's why you are drawing this kind of hysterical reaction from the likes of Martin here. Personally, I'm inclined to agree with Monty; 'when your enemy is destroying himself, get out of his way'.

After all, it isn't everyone that can unite right, left and undecided in such condemnation that the 'Guardian' has to shut its comment after a few hours instead of three days....

"It is time for this hounding of Neil Clark to stop. This is going too far."

'Hounding' = disagreeing with & saying so, it would appear, in Martin's playbook. Clarky had his freedom of speech, bloggers & commentators are now having theirs, and it shows him to be in a minority of about two.

Suck it up, man, and stop whining....

Posted by: JuliaM | Aug 12, 2007 5:18:47 AM

I guess I was the one who thought that the appropriate response was for for violence to be visited on Clark. Fine. So be it. As a libertarian minarchist I wholeheartedly believe that the enemies of personal sovereignty merit ignominious death. That means unreconstructed Marxists like Neil Clark or George Galloway. And that includes the Islamic zealots of 'Al Qaeda in Iraq' who believe that being an interpreter for the forces who removed one of the foulest dictators in modern memory is sufficient reason for torture and execution. People who side with Islamofascists are worthy of nothing but scorn. Martin, that means you. I wouldn't cross the road to piss on your teeth if they were on fire. In your support of Clark you perform a useful service in removing your views from sensible consideration.

Posted by: David Gillies | Aug 12, 2007 7:34:31 AM

Julia Manton,

You write,

"Suck it up, man, and stop whining...."

On another thread on this blog,

http://timworstall.typepad.com/timworstall/2007/08/neil-clark-agin.html

you indicated for a desire to be done upon my person.

Your precise words were,

""David,

I agree with every word of Neil's analysis.

Does that make me "a truly loathsome individual" worthy of "a really spectacular head-butt, followed by a kicking"?"

Hmmm, tricky question. I'd have to say......yes!"

At that point, your lack of moral seriousness became apparent. You seem to possess no particular insight, but you shout loudly.

Your shrillness notwithstanding, you seem to believe that you posess a monopoly on virtue. That makes you a Jacobin in the grand tradition of Robespierre and Desmoulins.

That makes you dangerous - indeed one would veture to suggest that if your brains were dynmaite, you couldnae part your hair.

Chris,

You have floated the idea that a British citizen living in Britain can be investigated in the UK for war crimes which may or may not be committed elsewhere as a consequence of doing nothing more than freely expressing an opinion in Britain regarding a matter of British public policy with which they disagree.

I am also a British citizen living in Britain. I agree with that person. By extension, that means that I should also be investigated.

I do not like that possibility. I'm not the world's bravest person - it scares me. It runs contrary to much of what I have always believed to be true about the British way of life - that at root we aren't really the type of society where people are accused of crimes and informed upon for saying what they think.

So I'll beg your pardon for flagging up my concern at the possibility of being prosecuted at your initiation. And getting just a bit angry at it.

Katy,

That comment wasn't necessary.

David Gillies,

"As a libertarian minarchist I wholeheartedly believe that the enemies of personal sovereignty merit ignominious death."

Now, that comment displays something of a disconnect in your thinking.

As a monarchist, how can one beleive in 'personal sovereignty'? Under our system, only the Monarch is sovereign; so what the 'personal sovereignty' to which you refer?

"People who side with Islamofascists are worthy of nothing but scorn. Martin, that means you."

If you trawl through my blog, David, I think you'll see that I have quite a long record of attacking militant Islam. I do not side with it.

If anyone's interested, the reason I hold my views is that, as far as I can see, this campaign is motivated by liberal internationalism, historically a defective and very destructive phenomenon in English thought; and the appalling treatment received by British service personnel means that, in any arbitrage of need of the kind that would have to be carried out to let this exercise be performed, I'm pretty much on their side first, last, always -

http://martinkelly.blogspot.com/2007/07/ah-good-olde-english-once-again.html

The rest of your comment's just gas.

Tim adds: Martin: there's a difference between "minarchist" (small government type) and "monarchist" (Royalist).

Posted by: Martin | Aug 12, 2007 9:27:22 AM

"Chris,

You have floated the idea that a British citizen living in Britain can be investigated in the UK for war crimes which may or may not be committed elsewhere as a consequence of doing nothing more than freely expressing an opinion in Britain regarding a matter of British public policy with which they disagree."

I quoted someone else floating that idea as it was an interesting comment, just as Tim quoted my quoting it in turn. So hardly "my initiation".

Posted by: Chris White | Aug 12, 2007 9:34:22 AM

Minasrchist, not Monarchist, you stupid cunt.

Posted by: David Gillies | Aug 12, 2007 9:36:09 AM

Errm. Minarchist

Posted by: David Gillies | Aug 12, 2007 9:38:41 AM

"Julia Manton,

You write..."

Who is 'Julia Manton'?

Ohh, I see, you assume from my email address that Manton is my surname. Still, as on another blog you referred to the witness stand rather than witness box, I can only assume you've been watching too much US TV.

"...indeed one would veture (sic) to suggest that if your brains were dynmaite (sic), you couldnae part your hair."

Lol! Or perhaps hanging around playgrounds. Try 'I know you are, but what am I?' next time. It has just a touch more gravitas.

Posted by: JuliaM | Aug 12, 2007 10:18:25 AM

"It runs contrary to much of what I have always believed to be true about the British way of life - that at root we aren't really the type of society where people are accused of crimes and informed upon for saying what they think.....

Katy,

That comment wasn't necessary."

Hmm, we have free speech here, but only if it's necessary speech. Nice concept.

Posted by: JuliaM | Aug 12, 2007 10:22:13 AM