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August 09, 2005
Monbiot on Patriotism.
Yes, he’s normally a few sultanas short of a fruticake but this deserves to be taken seriously as an argument:
I don't hate Britain, and
I am not ashamed of my nationality, but I have no idea why I should
love this country more than any other. There are some things I like
about it and some things I don't, and the same goes for everywhere else
I've visited. To become a patriot is to lie to yourself, to tell
yourself that whatever good you might perceive abroad, your own country
is, on balance, better than the others.
This will come across as all corny but if we remove the word "country" and substitute "culture" then I think the argument has a problem. That very general idea that holds the Anglosphere together, historically and worldwide a rather odd one, that it is the individual that matters, that governments are selected by us to do our bidding, that we own the State not the State owning us, these oddities such as the Common Law, assumption of innocence, jury trial by one’s peers (yes, I know that these are often observed only in the breach), that the Lords and Masters have to obey the same laws as the rest of us, that we don’t have to march in step to some preceived Nirvana, that such a thing would in fact be the very negation of a civilised society.....as I say, corny but yes I do believe that this is a better culture than any of the others on offer out there and thus I can and am a patriot without lying to myself.
August 9, 2005 in The English | Permalink
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» George Monbiot Denounces Patriotism from Moonbattery
There may be no higher emotion than patriotism — as evidenced by the sort of individuals who despise it. For example, consider George Monbiot, from whose name the word "moonbat" is believed to be derived. This British subject recently explained... [Read More]
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» George Monbiot Denounces Patriotism from Moonbattery
There may be no higher emotion than patriotism as evidenced by the sort of individuals who despise it. For example, consider George Monbiot, from whose name the word "moonbat" is believed to be derived. This British subject recently explained... [Read More]
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» George Monbiot Denounces Patriotism from Moonbattery
There may be no higher emotion than patriotism as evidenced by the sort of individuals who despise it. For example, consider George Monbiot, from whose name the word "moonbat" is believed to be derived. This British subject recently explained... [Read More]
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Comments
"he’s normally a few sultanas short of a fruticake"
Couldn't agree less. He might be a sandwich or two short of a picnic, but he is unquestionably the full, whole and complete fruitcake.
Posted by: Chris harper | Aug 9, 2005 12:59:20 PM
Here's another word to substitute: heritage. The arts (literature, theatre, dance, painting, architecture, landscaping, etc.) and sciences (military, physical, social, natural, industrial, etc) are what they are today because of the British and their influence on the world.
National pride is just like personal self-esteem: it's earned. Just as a person needs to honestly evaluate and correct flaws and mistakes, Britain has endeavored to reform itself over time (when was the last time anyone attended a hanging, let alone a Protestant or Catholic's being burned at the stake?). Anyone who sits through Last Night at the Proms without his heart swelling with patriotism needs to go on a museum and cathedral tour to learn exactly why he should be proud of his country, culture, and heritage.
(I'm American, but my husband is English; I love England second only to the USA.)
Posted by: goddessoftheclassroom | Aug 9, 2005 3:01:23 PM
This idea that patiotism involves always thinking that one's country is better than all others, no matter what, is a distortion dreamt up by unpatriotic people. What patriotism really is is the willingness to defend your country. I think the UK's bloody awful, but I'm still a patriot.
Posted by: Squander Two | Aug 9, 2005 4:11:23 PM
Does George Monbiot take out his own trash, or that of his neighbors? If the former, how does he justify privileging his own trash that way?
Does he change the oil in his own car regularly, or does he pick a random stranger every 5000 miles and change that guy's oil? If it's his own oil, I guess he must think his own car is somehow specially deserving of an oil change in a way that other cars aren't. How unfair of him, how bumptiously chauvinistic, to write off my car as undeserving simply because it isn't his.
Monbiot's take on patriotism here is a wonderful example of how you can be sublimely rational and still not make even the tiniest particle of actual sense.
Posted by: Professor Froward | Aug 9, 2005 6:12:59 PM
Last night of the proms!? come off it! utter tosh.
Q "(when was the last time anyone attended a hanging, let alone a Protestant or Catholic's being burned at the stake?)."
Well they found more effective ways to kill them in parts of the British Isles - guns, bombs - didn't they?
I am not particularly proud to be anything. I enjoy living in Britain, get a buzz out of it... here's another word - counterculture. What other culture could cultivate such disdain for its own heritage?! and have such an amusing time doing it!?
Another word... "make and ar*e of and pull off a lucky break or claim resounding success" - what other culture could make such an arse of things regularly and claim its actually brilliantly successful.
And Britain did not invent all arts and sciences! don't you watch "What did the ancients do for us?" where we discover that the ancient foreigners invented most of it all thousands of years ago whilst us Brits were giving each other tattoos and rustling each other's livestock.
To a large extent I like Britain, but find that such an inflated view of its importance in the world is setting us back as a nation immensely and cultivates arrogance and patriotic lies.
Posted by: angry economist | Aug 10, 2005 8:34:19 AM
Does Monbiot have a car, Professor?
Posted by: George | Aug 10, 2005 3:18:56 PM
angryeconomist
My goodness, you are angry!
I didn't mean to imply the British invented arts and sciences, merely that they made great concontributions (Chaucer, Shakespear, Milton, Sire Christopher Wren, Isaac Newton, Robert Boyle, Emund Halley, Adam Smith, Jane Austen, Admiral Nelson, The Dukes of Marlbourough and Wellington, Crick and Watson--well, you get the idea).
If you only see the negative aspects of your country, how miserable you must be, and you're just as biased as you accuse me of being. I'm not blind to the injustices and faults of the past, but instead of dwelling on them I recognize the great strides taken to redress the wrongs. Yes, the Proms may be corny to someone as enlightened as you, but I'll keep my sense of pride, even at the cost of your contempt.
Finally, I regret that you can't tell the difference between state-sponsored public executions (after a trial, however corrupt) and terrorism.
Tim adds: Was it Crick or Watson who was American?
Posted by: goddessoftheclassroom | Aug 10, 2005 4:04:28 PM
James Watson is American, Francis Crick was English, and co-winner Nobel Prize winner Maurice Wilkins was a New Zealander, but all three (along with Rosemary Franklin, also English, who died before the prize was awarded and thus was not eligible for it) were all at Cambridge University.
Posted by: goddessoftheclassroom | Aug 11, 2005 12:58:24 AM
Fact : we are all citizens of the womb, first. Fact : We are not born with a passport, and we do not need one when we die.
Fact : countries were more or less invented to delineate the scope of the lands of Kings and the people in those areas were deemed their subjects, and this 'reality' was held in place through brutish force.
Fact : Nationalism is the result of social conditioning encouraged by those that rule, as it serves to divide people, and distract them from the fact that those the rule, rip us off mightily.
Fact : You have yet to deal with your conditioning, and untill such time as you do, you remain a threat to the children of future generations.
Posted by: corneilius | Feb 20, 2006 4:37:26 PM
